Gliding Observations this year

[Kenny]

A lot more kiters are enjoying gliding this season. I have some observations to share with the group.
1. Localized lift - I have found that when the conditions are right (15 - 20 mph) wind you can often get a lot more lift off of a smaller terrain feature. I call it the elevator effect. I have found spots at Strawberry, Skyline, and Richardson's Flat where if you hit the spot right, instead of just flying off the hill, you will catch a pocket of lift that will pull you up 40 - 50 feet. The most notable one is on Bosco on the north side of the hill. Instead of coming off the top of the hill, bomb down past the flat spot and pull up on your bar right at the lip of the next drop-off. There is also a sweet spot that I found at Richardson's Flat today . It is on the big hill, on the north side. It is the largest area that is relatively brush-free. Just go past the half-pipe and stay to the north, it is fairly obvious as brush surrounds both sides.
2. You don't need a big hill to glide. Small terrain features that are only 30 - 40 feet high can be good if the wind is strong. If the wind is light, you need a bigger hill.
3. Kite loops at the end look cool and add style, but you don't have to do them to land successfully, just pay attention to where you are in the air and redirect the kite.

[bordy]

ok then

[Marty Lowe]

Year old kites can have worn lines, and UV damage, pin holes etc.

Inflatables tested, only can take a couple of "G"s
Foils, at least, Ozone have been tested to 8 "G"s
(from conversation with Rob, Ozone foil designer.)

This is not a brand flame or stance of any kind.

Just don't try to glide on anything but the newest gear.
It's not just changing lines.

Please be safe...

Drop from sky gliding.....Only a year old, but heavy use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfenWbpkKOg



-Marty

[Jacob Buzianis]

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2346788

That Suck!

Wayne was at least 50+ feet in that air, not 30+.

[Kenny]

You can have fun gliding without going big, just start lower on the hill and use a smaller kite.

I agree that it is wise to use a new kite AND new lines.

Billy and Jake, any comments on the elevator effect? I forgot to mention that for maximum lift you need to sheet out the bar and bomb down the hill. The more speed the better. When you feel lift, sheet-in and up and away you go. I like the stopper on the Waroo control bar, once I am in the air I pull the stopper down and comfortably steer the kite back and forth without having to hold down the bar.

[bordy]

New info. Kenny I have lots of new info about gliding from Alex Peterson. Latley I have been ridge soaring and trying to fly up hill. I think always looking at the hill side and where the wind is forced to upwell and rise is important. I watched Alex (well I saw the photos, and Alex had just had it happened and told me all about it in a scared voice). Catch thermo lift and go about 300 feet high. I think knowing and understanding what can cause you to rise( over a dark group of trees), and how to get out of the rising air is as important as knowing how to take of and land. As of latley I have had some 150 maybe 200 foot plus flights that last well over a minute, and cover a thousand plus yards. I am fully aware that any falure at this hight could be fatal, and after flying with Chasta and Rob I am begining to understand the challange of low soaring and foward flight. I am also staring to look at all my falure points on my kites and tring to reduce them.( like taking the chicken loop realese out of the system and perhaps double lines, plus extra harness backing up the spreader bar and hook, etc.. Since I recently went to a kite with out pulleys I have taken them out of the picture. I highly recommend backing up yours if Jake did not already on the 17 you have. Thats the first thing Alex asked if my kite had. Although I have no paragliding experance I am begining to learn from experanced flyers that perhaps i am crossing into the relm out side the saftey features of the gear I am flying with. I think I have reached a point in Flying that I can use the kite well as a wing and have been hucking over everything in site. Perhaps its time to learn some new tricks for me........

I also wanted to ask if others who saw the video of Wanye, does it look like he looped the kite and the the leader broke? Or the leader broke then the kite looped? We have all been in agrement that the loop puts the most stress on the kite????

Glad hes ok.

[Marty Lowe]

I believe the loop is after the break.

I would not want to challenge Wayne on Kiteforum,
(he found my wallet in the snow, I owe him)
but, I'm pretty sure he has never changed his lines.
The kite is a year old, and he kites a lot.

We are in and area that is in the forefront of "gliding"
This type of discussion is very healthy,
Our conclusions and ideas need to be posted on the international forums.
after we have some general consensus on how to go forward.

My opinion, as always, is the lower profile the better.
Promotion gliding isn't something I would do.

-Marty

[windzup]

I work for a company that sells both kites and paragliders, along with other weird equipment for wind powered mountain descents.

If you want to glide... buy a paraglider, these are safe and developed. If you want to Snowkite, buy a Snowkite and go Snowkiting.

If you want to glide on a kite, be aware that you are a test pilot, & treading waters that experienced aviators know are dangerous.

While gliding with kites CAN be done, it only fits into the category of 'Extreme' as Extremely Stupid. The higher you are off the ground on your kite, the farther you are away from what the kite was designed for.

While companies like Ozone are proud that their kites are durable and are built to similar specs as paragliders, it does not change the fact that they were not intended for gliding.

Food for Thought: If you want to be a test pilot, be a smarter one. Double up everything... double the leader lines, double the kite lines, and double the surface on your canopy. Gliding on inflatables is even dumber for one obvious reason.... only ONE surface that is held together with hundreds of perforations where the stitch line connects each panel, so that means you have a single skin of material that is ready to pull apart under a stresful load (gliding is heavily stressful on kites!)

I have attended dozens of aerial maneuver clinics, where paragliders test their wings high over water... and I have seen leading paraglider brands rip in half during high stress loads.... it CAN happen to a kite... its a matter of time.... Paragliders have reserve parachutes, kiters only have balls to land on.

Windzup,
Stay safe

[Kenny]

If you want to glide... buy a paraglider, these are safe and developed. If you want to Snowkite, buy a Snowkite and go Snowkiting.

If you want to glide on a kite, be aware that you are a test pilot, & treading waters that experienced aviators know are dangerous.

Brian,

Well said. I have my own caveat. Gliding can be done without going more than 30 feet above the ground. I still think you should maintain your gear because we all know that you can jump 30 feet above the ground as well. Falling 30 feet straight down under either circumstance can hurt or even kill you.

Foil kites do offer more protection due to more built in redundancy, but as you stated are not designed for high altitude gliding.

Billy,

I personally think ridge soaring is pushing the boundaries. I have tried it with a kite on a number of occasions and decided it was not for me. I figure that if I want to go ridge soaring, I am going to go out on a paraglider or wait until the technology for kites catches up with what people like you and Alex are doing. It is just too extreme for my tastes. I like the feeling of a nice short flight. Extended flights do get a bit boring. Thank you for bringing up the issue of doubling up the pulley's. I will talk to Jake.

Promotion gliding isn't something I would do.

Marty, unfortunately, many of the videos are doing exactly that. That is why this type of discussion is important. I think that low-level gliding can be fun for most riders and can be approached in a safe and prudent action, but they need some education first. How high and far you go depends on 4 factors:
1. How large of a kite you use
2. How strong and turbulent the wind is on the day that you are riding.
3. Where you decide to glide
4. How aggressive you are in developing speed and flying the kite in the air.

As I stated, I think riders can stay low and have fun, but they must have a clear understanding of the weather, how wind flows up a slope, warning signs, etc. Gear is half of the equation, the other half is rider knowledge.

[mike loeser]

Kenny,
I know I don't have as much experience in the gliding even kiting area, so take this with that in mind. I personally think that there will be an accident sooner than later. Just something simple like the knot on the leader lines coming undone will be all it takes (see the video of Wayne?). The other problem I see would be people doing this without anyone around. I was in the parking lot at Richardson's watching some nice glides coming off the top of the mountain. I had just pulled up and no one else was there. The top of the hill is what about 2 miles or so from the lot? If something were to happen, it would be a long time to get someone hauled off for medical care even if someone saw the accident. Now if no one was there, a minor injury, like a broken leg could be fatal. That could be it for that kiter. So, make sure there is someone around to call 911 if need be and keep a cell phone yourself. Skyline is also pretty far away from the hospital. A serious head or back injury there could change your life. Be smart and double up on everything like Brian said.
Still wish I had the balls to do this!
Mike L.

[Kenny]

The other problem I see would be people doing this without anyone around. I was in the parking lot at Richardson's watching some nice glides coming off the top of the mountain. I had just pulled up and no one else was there. The top of the hill is what about 2 miles or so from the lot? If something were to happen, it would be a long time to get someone hauled off for medical care even if someone saw the accident. Now if no one was there, a minor injury, like a broken leg could be fatal. That could be it for that kiter. So, make sure there is someone around to call 911 if need be and keep a cell phone yourself.

Good point, I am guilty on this one. I kite alone, glide alone - probably not smart on either account.

As far as gliding goes, start small. I found what took the longest time to get used to was the feeling of hoovering over the ground. When you jump, you have a definite idea of exactly when you are going to land. Gliding is different. Depending on the type of glide, your feet may not touch the ground right when you want them to. For landlubbers like me, it was a disconcerting feeling at first.

[Marty Lowe]

I have had the great fortune to snowkite this year, with the designer of the Ozone Frenzy/Manta/Access foils.
Although I mainly fly inflatables, we have had many conversations about backcountry snowkiting and gliding.
After these conversations, my decision is to fly foils when I get more into gliding.
With all the videos on youtube, and with our locals getting so much heights on the glides,
he has put together his views on this growing aspect of our sport.

-Marty

Hi there kiting friends,
I would like to put forward my opinion in the hope that it will help prevent the inevitable.
It is only my humble opinion and by no means do I mean it to sound like it is gospel in any way. I am putting forward what I see as reality from my position and history and that is all. I am sure there is much to be added that I do not know but as to date this is what I have to offer.

A brief background.
I have spent 18 years in paraglider design and development as a test pilot and designer. As a test pilot I was deeply involved with certification and the safety of the paragliders both in flight and structurally regarding the integrity of the materials involved in manufacturing.
As a designer of paragliders that have to pass a rigorous certification, I am used to thinking in terms safety and calculating forces and stress to avoid material fatigue or failure.
I have also learnt that if it can go wrong it will go wrong….
I have also witnessed the loss of life and permanent disability….

First off you must all understand that to myself and Ozone, Snowkiting does not involve flying off hills… That is another sport that I choose to take part in called “being pretty stupid”.
Chasta has been going big for five years now but Ozone has never promoted that side of what he is doing because we and I do not consider it safe or good promotion for the sport of Snowkiting. We could have shown Chata at over 200ft years ago but that would be foolish of us to do that as that is not what we want to promote as Snowkiting. Watch Chasta today and you will see that he flies a long time but never high, he has worked out that that is just dangerous and not very hard, it takes more skill to keep it close to the ground and reduces the risk a little.

And I am the first to hold up my hand and say that I realize just how thin a line I am walking when I fly my kite off the hill. I owe it to myself to understand the dangers and decide if I want to take the risk. I know that an equipment failure at 40ft plus could easily end in serious injury or death depending how lucky I were to be on that particular day!
If you want to be stupid like me then first remember that all your equipment should be in top condition and preferably new! Do not use old kites of any sort, foil or inflatable. Use a climbing harness and carabineer to hook into as well as your kite harness. Inspect your lines, bar and kite for any signs of ANYTHING and if you find anything wrong replace it.
Your life is hanging under something that is not designed for what you are doing so don’t expect it to always go they way you think it is going to…


Weigh up the pros and cons.
I choose a Foil…
I know I am going to fly of hills, I am after all in love with flying one way or another. From what I know I choose a Foil kite for the simple reason that I think it is a safer option. I like the fact that the load of the pilot is more evenly distributed through the lines, the double surface and ribs. It makes perfect sense to me that this is better than say four or five attachment points. I also know they are built to the same standard as a paragliders and I know paragliders are incredibly strong. Paraglider load test takes the maximum pilot weight and then takes it to 8G. I would estimate we could load a foil kite up to about 5G with a 80kg load. We have not tested this but we have tested the Bullet speed wing 10m to 600kg no problemo!


The reason I don’t personally want to ride a tube on the snow…
The very highly tensioned single surface and the tube at high pressure in very cold temperatures where materials start to get brittle, does not excite me. I don’t like the fact that there are so few attachment points distributing my weight. I would worry about them splitting down one of the seams as I have seen happen. I don’t want to pump! If you get a puncture your day is over. I want to be able to launch and land easily and I want small package when it is packed. For sure if you want to just do the same things as you do on water they work fine but if you want to ride up mountains and adventure all over the place like Chasta does then they are not a good option. Inflatables kick ass on the water but I don’t think I will fly one on the snow.


Now having said that we are all fundamentally attached to four lines, bar and a harness… So it comes down to you as to which part you think is going to fail, the lines or the kite. I do know that we have tested well-used flying lines and the results have been very good with lines only dropping 10 to 30% after a full season on the snow and water. I know I can inspect the lines and bar easily and I change my lines regularly during the season. So the kite for me is what I worry about. I also know that this year we have been having problems with our bars!!! Now imagine if one of those went when you were 60ft high! So as pilots we can trust or take anything for granted.

I don’t care really what you do or what type of kite you fly but you should really think about and understand the dangers you are really exposed to. Also remember that when you have a bad accident not only are you going to have a bad day, your friends are as well because the are going to be dealing with your broken ass instead of ripping it up…

Think before you fly!

Take it easy and enjoy.

Rob Whittall.