New to Kiting - Should I buy a Naish Helix quiver???

[jakespinder]

I am new to kiting. I have taken my lessons and I am ready to buy my own quiver. I was a used quiver because I am sure that I will trash the kites. I have a friend with a quiver of 2010 Naish Helix kites that he wants to sell. He is selling a 9, 12, and 14m. So my questions: Is the Naish Helix a good kite to learn on? Is the 9, 12, 14m a good quiver in Utah? (I am 160lbs.)

I have ready reviews on the internet but I wanted to hear it from someone on here that may have a better insight. Let me know what you think.

[gregwojtkun]

As someone who is also new to the sport my advice is start off slow and buy just one kite. Cant comment on Naish (esp 2010 models) as I have Cabrinha and Core kites. Many of the guys around here seem to have Ozone kites. The Catalyst is solid for all around and the Zephyr for low wind summer thermals. Go talk to Steve M at Cloud 9 in draper. He will hook you up and get you dialed in. I started with an 11m and trained on that until I was riding upwind consistently on my own in deep water. Only then did I decide to invest in a second kite once I knew the sport was for me. Im now learning the toe side transition... its getting there.

If you are fresh off lessons I would recommend training at a shallow water location until you are proficient at riding upwind in both directions. Getting dragged downwind with the in ability to re-launch in deep water can get ugly quick.

[Leo Chan]

The helix is a bridal-C kite. It is aimed at experienced kiter who wants the pop and fast turning. It is not an ideal kite for Utah, especially if you're just learning. For beginners, you want a medium to low aspect ratio kite that is not a C-shape. Delta shape or a bow kite would be better choices. The Ozone Catalyst could be a good one. Cabrihna Switch Blade is also doable. As for the size, I think a 12 or 13 meter would be the most frequently used kite you'll have, given your weight. I ride my Adi Kites Ignite (bow-delta shape) 12 meter 90% of the time.

[Marty Lowe]

As far as Ozone Catalyst goes.
The Cat made a major transformation in 2013.
I highly recommend this kite as a super all a rounder, do everything good kite.
I highly recommend not buying a Catalyst 2012 or older, mushy, and gutless.

[jakespinder]

Guys, thanks for your responses. I ended up buying a 12m Best TS, a 2012 Cabrinha Spectrum 140, and a 2012 Cabrinha Caliber 130. My friend, who is living abroad, also is lending me his 2010 Best Waroo 9m/11m/13m kites until he gets back in a year. So I am set on kites.

Will I ever need anything bigger like a 17m?

Let me respond to one thing that Greg said. I will NEVER buy anything else from Cloud 9. When I was taking lessons, Steve tried to sell me an 11m Slingshot Fuel, a C-Kite. He tired telling me that it would be great for a beginner... a freaking C-Kite for a beginner??? Really??? I don't know what he is trying to pull, but I would be pissed if I bought it. Look on KSL...there is a guy selling a Slingshot Fuel that he bought from Cloud 9 because his wife cannot control the kite.

[stevejmayer]

Guess I need to chime in. The Fuel is a "C" kite and we got a screaming deal on them from Slingshot and the company (slingshot rep) was singing the praise on how great a kite they were for snow. Yes it's a C, but simple fact is anyone with gray hair (and I got a lot of it), learned on C kites, they don't have the nice feel of the newer beginner kites, but do work and the price was and is incredible for someone on a budget. We only offered them as a low dollar option. We have a full stock of both Ozone, Slingshot and other kites, but some want to save a few bucks, and instead of buying something old on ebay, we are not afraid to sell a fuel to someone snow kiting.

As for a friend who's wife bought a C kite from Cloud 9, you are now just not telling the truth. We bought exactly 2 Slingshot Fuels, and have exactly 2 left in inventory. I can't think of who that might be as we just don't sell that many kites. The sport is so competitive that it's hard to make any money as a retail shop and we only offer kites at screaming deals to help out locals so it really stings to hear you say negative things about Cloud 9. We love to kite so try to have stock and for sure keep locals up and running with our repair shop.

Sorry you had a bad experience, our staff doesn't know all the in's and out's of kiting and I try to answer any of the questions. Not sure who you are, but guessing you took lessons with Don, he is kick ass and sure he helped let you know what he likes. Simple fact is that there are a million kites out there and some are better than others. My brother rides for Naish in Maui and I've had a lot of time on the Helix, safe to say, I think you'd find the Fuel more forgiving than the Helix, at least that's my experience. Anyway, at $799 complete that was a deal and only offered as just that, a budget deal.

I try to stay off forums, they always bite me in the ass. It's hard to keep stock, keep deals going, and keep everyone happy when in fact I almost never get to ride in Utah as i'm in the shop all day. Too bad, wish I worked out of a van and only took cash, perhaps I'd have less gray hair.

Steve Mayer
Cloud 9

[stevejmayer]

PS, just to set the record straight, checked KSL, that's a 17 on there for sale, I've never sold a 17 Fuel ever, that's too big a kite and does not turn well, only light wind specific kites work in that size. Also another used Fuel that they guy bought in 2012, again, not from us. Please don't post lies about a business until you know the facts, that sucks for not only me, but future kiters who may not have a shop to turn to for gear and repairs and advise. Kiting is a kick ass sport, but for shops to survive, we need support, not BS like you posted. Shame on you.

[jakespinder]

Steve,

I don't want to throw you under the bus and I don't know who Don is. I just walked into your shop and was told that the Slingshot Fuel would be the best kite for a beginner. Maybe because I had a budget in mind. But I was kiteboarding in San Francisco and I asked the pro there about the fuel for a beginner and he said that "whoever tries to sell a beginner a C-Kite is only trying to unload something onto you, and you shouldn't trust what they tell you."

I understand that all the "gray hair" riders learned on C-Kites, but I also know that guys got their butts kicked by those C-Kites.

Sincerely,

Jake

[jakespinder]

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad ... e&ad_cid=9

P.S. Here is the ad for a 12 meter, not a 17m.

[Leo Chan]

I am not taking side as I know nothing about the true story here. But I did learn on the old Slingshot Fuel (2006) 5-line C kite. It was a bitch to relaunch. But my first kite was a Best Yorga (2004, non-bridal C kite). So, after what I've experienced, I tried to get my friends away from C shape at the beginning as much as possible. But there is nothing wrong with learning on C kite. In fact, a few of the schools in Mui Ne, Vietnam, use the Adi Kites Axis, a bridal C kite, for teaching exclusively. Due to the nature of shore break and short shore line, they need the responsiveness of C shape kite there. So, it all depends on location and wind condition. Most C kites these days are bridal C, so they can handle gust quite well. In fact, I am liking my Axis kite line more and more.

The 12 meter TS you got is actually the same as the Fuel and Adi Kites Axis in terms of shape and responsiveness. The TS is a bridal C kite. . .

[Leo Chan]

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=27942172&cat=&lpid=2&search=kite&ad_cid=9

P.S. Here is the ad for a 12 meter, not a 17m.

Dude, this is a 2002 Fuel. Yeah, this one will kill you for sure. The seller is a douch for selling a piece of shitz.

[jakespinder]

Look, I don't want to throw Cloud 9 under the bus. I am sorry for my first post as I did not mean to do that. My trainer in California taught me to be weary of what people try to sell and be weary about buying used. I just hope that they don't try to sell these C-Kites to a beginner. Because the beginner will either get hurt or quit the sport because of frustration.

[gregwojtkun]

I just hope that they don't try to sell these C-Kites to a beginner. Because the beginner will either get hurt or quit the sport because of frustration.

Jake, Not entirely true, but I see what you are getting at. Yes, Bow/Delta shaped kites are, in general, easier to launch/re-launch and control. However, to both Steve's and Leo's point: Its not impossible to learn on a C kite, though, not ideal but everyone is different in terms of their ability to fly and control a kite. Regardless of your experience with Cloud 9, prob not the best idea to trash the local kite shop on the local kite forum. I only recommended Cloud 9/Steve because I (and many others most likely) had a good experience, thought they gave good insight, and gave me a good deal (10-15% cheaper than any price I found online). You obviously didn't have the same experience and that's fine, but next time simply just don't take the advice and shop for your kites elsewhere. I think you realize that now and this should be a closed issue as we all just want to have fun!

Now, back to your original question on if a 17m kite should be the "biggest" kite you will need in Utah. The answer is yes (as long as you are 160-185lbs geared up). Anything bigger would most likely be diminishing returns. If you are under 160 geared up, you may get by with a 15m. However, others can probably provide more insight on this as I have yet to ride in the summer thermals in Utah, but from all the forums and advice I sought, 17m seems like a must if you want to get riding the most days possible in the thermals. Now, these kites are not cheap... plan on $2k complete new (meaning bar included). Also, Im going to stress, again, my point of being proficient at upwind riding. You will for sure want to practice this in a flat water, shallow location. Ive been a beginner getting dragged downwind in deep water without being able to re-launch: NOT FUN! You also want to get used to the "gusts" of Utah. Especially if you plan on cracking out a 17m. You may be able to get by with the 13m kite you are borrowing (and... a REALLY nice friend to let a beginner have free reign on his gear) but you will get skunked on some days when the other guys are taking laps on their 17s. I learned in the Caribbean which is more of a steady wind speed, fluctuating a couple knots. Way different here as I learned last weekend. Was blowing 13-15kts then gusting up to 20+kts. You need to really understand when these gusts hit and depower yourself. Thus, you for sure want a kite that has HIGH AND EASY DEPOWER. The Cabrinha Switchblade is a master at this. Ozone Catalyst as well. This is just one beginner talking to another. This sport gets very addicting very fast, and thus, VERY Expensive. You not only need a couple of kites, but a couple of boards, a harness, cold water gear, etc. So get ready for it. That's why Steve is generally on our good side: He gives great prices compared to market. Also, Adding a couple board styles / styles to your collection will certainly help you max out the wind range of your kite. Boards are generally less expensive and its easier to buy a used board as what you see is what you get. A used kite, like your buddy warned you, is a crap shoot. You have no idea how many patches are on that bladder or what shape its in.

Ok Im winded... Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Leo Chan]

Greg got it right. The problem with C shape kite is not that it is dangerous. It just has a lot less depower. But the newer bridal C are better at handling gusts. There are a few experienced kiters here who likes the C shape more, especially when riding surfboards. All bars these days have 100% depower anyway. So, the danger is your reaction time.

Buying used kites online and from people you don't know is way more problematic than you think. I had one kite where the bladder was repaired improperly. Needless to say, I had to spend $300 for the repairs and new bladder.