Replacing lines with lines made of stronger materials?

[Leo Chan]

I went to an outdoor adventure shop today and saw some lines that are for rock climbers and that got me thinking if it would be a good idea to replace the leader lines and safety lines. I don't know if any of you has done your own "upgrade". If so, please share your insight. Is there a trade off between durability and flexibility? The lines for rock climbing is considerably stronger due to the material they use. But they are also more rigid. Other than the lack of loops, I don't see any down side for replacing the leader lines with them. Any thought?

[Kenny]

Leader lines are typically very strong, flying lines are much more likely to break. The tradeoff with stronger flying lines are increased weight and drag. I am going to try some 1,000 LB lines. I know that Slingshot puts 800LB lines on the front lines and 400LB on the steering lines on at least some of their 2010 bars.

Other areas of weakness:
1. Pulleys on the bridle
2. Chickenloop release and leader
3. Trim Strap & spinner for untangling the lines
4. Kite bridles
6. Pigtails
7. The kite if it has any rips or tears.
8. The control bar & bar ends
9. Leader attachment to the bar
10. Harness and hook

Using new, solidly built gear gets you part way there. We also need a super bomber control bar. Don is working on one

[TSterling]

I remember seeing some helmet cam video with Chasta and he had doubled up all of his lines. Let me see if I can find it. It is one of my favorite youtube videos. Had me hooked for life..

[Leo Chan]

This is has been a valuable experience. Good thing I learn it the easy way. I would take a few more pounds of drag over reduced safety anytime! It seems like more components mean more chances for potential weakness. Good thing I like speed, not big air. Still, having a line break on you is not fun. I am going to try the replacement lines.

[TSterling]

Well, It's not the video that I remembered it being. I hope I'm not dreaming.

Here is a sweet youtube for consolation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuH4OfsYOo

[whit]

With snowkiting and ski or board edges cutting into the lines, heavier lines and leader line climbing rope, spectra or other would be a good idea. Especially if you are doing any high altitude gliding, like Kenny. With water kiting, no ski edges and some difficult launch sites, it actually might be a good idea to just use the standard 600 pound test flying lines and standard leader lines, then if you have a big problem on launching (or landing) the lines will actually break and save you from getting dragged into bad obstacles. I have heard of lines breaking and actually saving people from further injury while being dragged thru rocks and lessening a kitemare situation near the water.

[JimSouthwick]

Having all the lines break at once might be helpful in an emergency situation, but usually it's just one line that fails, and in that case the kite tends to go into an uncontrollable death spiral with lots of power.

[Leo Chan]

Whit, you got a good point. With skis and boards, the leader lines are more likely to be damaged. So, I think stronger materials are better. For flying lines, I think the standard stuff might be good enough. Jim is also correct that if one leader line breaks, the kite could be a dead spiral. So, I think stronger leader line is the way to go.

[btjsfca]

Climbing lines may be dynamic, i.e., they stretch. This will severly affect your ability to fly and steer. The spectra that makes up flying line is ideal for kiting because it is essentially zero stretch, abrasion resistant, and so on. Q-Power lines use a linear spectra core (there's no give at all as in braided line when the fibers have bends that can allow the line to stretch), and I think that Q-Power also sheaths the line with dacron which is very tough.

If you want to replace leader lines with a stronger material, you can try and find some Vectran line. New England Ropes' V-12 is good. That stuff is hard to cut when you mean to. I dulled a razor blade trying. The trick is that you need to crush the fibers. You may encounter some trouble knotting that line. I recall that it is slippery. Although, if you splice and sew, you'll likely end up with a professional-strength connection point without any loose ends to snag. You'll need a fid to make the splice, and you might want to look into whether there are any tricks to splicing vectran.

Hope that's useful.

-Justin

[bordy]

My 2 cents,

I think the entire conversation is just Silly,

Leo there is no need for you to replace your lines with anything stronger then what the manufactor provides with the kite, 800lbs center six hundred lbs outer lines. Plus super burley rigging. We spend a ton of time and money trying to find the best materals for kiting, it there was a better line that does the job we would sell the kites with thoose lines installed. I have never seen the line you broke break before, something must have started that thing, a sharpe edge or something. I would fogus all your attention on discovering why that line failed, is there a burr on the cleat, etc. instead of coming up with over kill ideas, to fix a very, very very random failure. Perhaps riders that glide huge have the need for a back up system, but if you are going to jump and fly you have already made that choice so you should no enough about your gear to custimize it your self.

Most (read as almost all) companys also use differnt strength lines for out sides and inside so the if there is a failure it happens on the outside lines so the kite will luft and stop pulling if the kiter lets go. this breakage has saved many a kiter from injury as Whit stated.

Unless you are knowledgeable enough to decide why and how you should go about re rigging your kite for a spacific purpose you shoule really ride what the manufactor puts out. Any time you change anything you are going to change the entire system and place stress on other places that may fail instead, like the bar or bridle system. I fly my gear almost stock with some changes when I glide over a 100 feet high or so. Other then that my and almost every other team riders gear is right out of the bag the way the company decided it should fly...

I would how ever inspect my gear regularly anf replace any thing that looks suspect, any good kite manufactor should have the replacement parts you need, pre tired and ready to install in minutes!!!

gear brakage is going to happen, doing the maintance to replace items before they break is much smarter and safer then the getto over kill rerig.

This is my list of stuff that may break while kiting.



ALL OF IT!

[Kenny]

This is my list of stuff that may break while kiting.



ALL OF IT!

yeah, that is the problem. Anything may break.

Kites are not engineered for gliding. The problem with gliding on a kite is not that the stock equipment is not strong enough, a kite loop puts a lot more stress on the lines than gliding. What is lacking is redundancy. On a paraglider if you have a single line break, there are many others to back you up. On a kite if one line breaks, you are going to drop.

I agree with Billy that ghetto rigs don't make a lot of sense. Unless you are an engineer, you may end up rigging a bar that is actually far less safe than a stock bar. We need professional designers that are serious about building safe solutions for gliding. The only designer I am aware of that actually glides himself is Rob Whitall.

[Marty Lowe]

Here is an open letter from Ozone designer, Rob Whittall.
written in 2007

Marty



"Hi there kiting friends,
I would like to put forward my opinion in the hope that it will help prevent the inevitable.
It is only my humble opinion and by no means do I mean it to sound like it is gospel in any way. I am putting forward what I see as reality from my position and history and that is all. I am sure there is much to be added that I do not know but as to date this is what I have to offer.

A brief background.
I have spent 18 years in paraglider design and development as a test pilot and designer. As a test pilot I was deeply involved with certification and the safety of the paragliders both in flight and structurally regarding the integrity of the materials involved in manufacturing.
As a designer of paragliders that have to pass a rigorous certification, I am used to thinking in terms safety and calculating forces and stress to avoid material fatigue or failure.
I have also learnt that if it can go wrong it will go wrong….
I have also witnessed the loss of life and permanent disability….

First off you must all understand that to myself and Ozone Snowkiting does not involve flying off hills… That is another sport that I choose to take part in called “being pretty stupid”.
Chasta has been going big for five years now but Ozone has never promoted that side of what he is doing because we and I do not consider it safe or good promotion for the sport of Snowkiting. We could have shown Chata at over 200ft years ago but that would be foolish of us to do that as that is not what we want to promote as Snowkiting. Watch Chasta today and you will see that he flies a long time but never high, he has worked out that that is just dangerous and not very hard, it takes more skill to keep it close to the ground and reduces the risk a little.

And I am the first to hold up my hand and say that I realize just how thin a line I am walking when I fly my kite off the hill. I owe it to myself to understand the dangers and decide if I want to take the risk. I know that an equipment failure at 40ft plus could easily end in serious injury or death depending how lucky I were to be on that particular day!
If you want to be stupid like me the first remember that all your equipment should be in top condition and preferably new! Do not use old kites of any sort, foil or inflatable. Use a climbing harness and carabineer to hook into as well as your kite harness. Inspect your lines, bar and kite for any signs of ANYTHING and if you find anything wrong replace it.
Your life is hanging under something that is not designed for what you are doing so don’t expect it to always go they way you think it is going to…


Weigh up the pros and cons.
I choose a Foil…
I know I am going to fly of hills, I am after all in love with flying one way or another. From what I know I choose a Foil kite for the simple reason that I think it is a safer option. I like the fact that the load of the pilot is more evenly distributed through the lines, the double surface and ribs. It makes perfect sense to me that this is better than say four or five attachment points. I also know they are built to the same standard as a paragliders and I know paragliders are incredibly strong. Paraglider load test takes the maximum pilot weight and then takes it to 8G. I would estimate we could load a foil kite up to about 5G with a 80kg load. We have not tested this but we have tested the Bullet speed wing 10m to 600kg no problemo!


The reason I don’t personally want to ride a tube on the snow…
The very highly tensioned single surface and the tube at high pressure in very cold temperatures where materials start to get brittle, does not excite me. I don’t like the fact that there are so few attachment points distributing my weight. I would worry about them splitting down one of the seams as I have seen happen. I don’t want to pump! If you get a puncture your day is over. I want to be able to launch and land easily and I want small package when it is packed. For sure if you want to just do the same things as you do on water they work fine but if you want to ride up mountains and adventure all over the place like Chasta does then they are not a good option. Inflatables kick ass on the water but don’t think I will fly one on the snow.


Now having said that we are all fundamentally attached to four lines, bar and a harness… So it comes down to you as to which part you think is going to fail, the lines or the kite. I do know that we have tested well-used flying lines and the results have been very good with lines only dropping 10 to 30% after a full season on the snow and water. I know I can inspect the lines and bar easily and I change my lines regularly during the season. So the kite for me is what I worry about. I also know that this year (2007, recalled and replaced) we have been having problems with our bars!!! Now imagine if one of those went when you were 60ft high! So as pilots we can trust or take anything for granted.

I don’t care really what you do or what type of kite you fly but you should really think about and understand the dangers you are really exposed to. Also remember that when you have a bad accident not only are you going to have a bad day, your friends are as well because the are going to be dealing with your broken ass instead of ripping it up…

Think before you fly!

Take it easy and enjoy.

Rob Whittall."

[BobLeGault]

Here is a youtube video that is perfect for this topic. Does anyone know who it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfenWbpkKOg&feature=related

Safety First! Inspect before you ride!

[Marty Lowe]

Does anyone know who it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfenWbpkKOg&feature=related

Wayne Phillips from Jackson,
He admited a lack of maintainence on his equipment,
the lines broke at the bar, where sand had grinded away at them for over 100 sessions.

Marty

[Leo Chan]

I think my bar is the 2007 version. . .

Good discussions, I think.